Well, there you go again, Charles. Still being highly provocative. Not a fan of Abraham Lincoln, eh? Of course it took an act of Congress, to amend the Constitution, and “abolish” slavery altogether (such a loaded topic!), but to say “We don’t need no stinkin’ Habeus Corpus” Lincoln’s Proclamation was a political scheme exposes your bias (obviously intentional)—to say nothing of the choice to completely ignore the tremendous symbolic nature and necessity of the Proclamation which was meant to set this country on the true path of freedom for all. Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing. It had an obvious effect—it brought an awareness of what was possible in a land imperfectly devoted to the ideal that “all men are created equal!” The 13th Amendment likely would not have happened, and certainly when it happened, had the Emancipation Proclamation not been established from a single man who has rightly been acknowledged by the overwhelming majority of historians to be our country’s most important, most eloquent, most compassionate, most admired, and best presidents—imperfect as even he admitted. You, as a white man of privilege, who would prefer there still be a confederacy to live in (apparently, you give no evidence to the contrary), don’t get to proclaim Juneteenth isn’t important and expect no one to stand in vigorous opposition. You can say it, of course; we’ve debated that right in the recent past. But provocative statements like yours should always be confronted by a different perspective the likes of which will always be favored by history as the right and morally correct and defensible perspective. I don’t think, I trust, you are arguing against the 13th Amendment—you’d rather have that date of ratification be the one best celebrated for its actual impact upon the freedom of slaves (I don’t disagree—December 6, 1865 should itself be a national holiday). But Juneteenth was necessary and needed and rightfully commemorated. It started the bending of the long arc of the moral universe towards justice. So it had to happen. It’s earned its place as a national holiday. This is why June 19th IS important. I therefore stand in opposition to your thesis and respectfully disagree, vehemently.
Regardless, and you will remember, we still have July 19, 2024 to look forward to—32 days away. You promised, right?
But may we stay friends who have agreed to even vehemently disagree, agreeably. Until we are forced to depart from each other, that is—by your own self-imposed, deadlined promise.
I apologize for your lack of understanding. I am no fan of slavery and when I wrote about Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus I was referring to his illegally imprisoning thousands of Maryland voters to keep that state from joining the Confederacy.
I'm assuming you have at least a modest understanding of the American Civil War; so I'll try not to be so irritating. When Lincoln declared his famous "Emancipation Proclamation", he only stated that slaves in the Confederacy were set free. That's nothing more than an example of Lincoln pandering to his abolitionist base. How many ACTUAL slaves were set free by his Proclamation? I'd guess none.
Don’t apologize for my lack of understanding, for THAT’s not something you could apologize for. (Side note: when students of mine, or even colleagues would attempt an apology by saying “I’m sorry you feel that way,” THAT really wasn’t an apology—for they were taking no responsibility for their part).
And I’ll state with certainty I’m not misunderstanding anything. With the history you state, re: Habeus Corpus in Maryland, and the Emancipation of confederate slaves, I am very aware of. I don’t contest any of that—but I don’t hear you acknowledging the value of the Emancipation Proclamation as I tried to articulate. It was a necessary step, as he, Lincoln, saw it to be, to get Congress eventually to the place it needed to be. To believe or say otherwise, especially with the words you use to describe Lincoln, would seem to point to a person who harbors some pretty extreme beliefs about slavery, Lincoln, the Civil War, etc. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but from my perspective, you are on the wrong side of history here. Why do I believe you fly a confederate flag and even right now are flying an American flag upside down?
This is why you continue to puzzle me, Charles. I really do appreciate the respect and civility in which you are engaging me. I hope you feel the same. Your pen pal partner, Kevin, sadly, can’t get to this place.
But I still 100% disagree with you.
Do you remember the promise you gave me for July 20, 2024? “If FJB is still in office after July 20, I’ll apologize and stop writing on Substack.com.” And don’t you dare tell me you purposefully left things ambiguous enough that it gives you justification for staying. Correct me if I’m wrong with this translation, “if the current president of the United States, Joseph Robinette Biden, is still in office after July 20, 2024, you will apologize and stop writing on all Substack applications, sites, and forums.” Right?
You are an astute reader, Kert. Indeed, I did promise to stop posting on Substack.com if Joe Biden remains in office after July 20. That does not mean I will stop commenting on other's posts. I appreciate the fact that you are aware that Lincoln was terrified that Maryland would join the CSA and that would put Washington, DC in a bad position - completely surrounded by rebels. I still insist that the Emancipation Proclamation was nothing more than a publicity stunt and an effort to win re-election. Although it is promoted through our propagandists that it accomplished something, it was no more meaningful than Biden's finally following Trump's plan to protect the border.
I again will call out your civility with me and thank you for that. I’m grateful you and I have come to this place even though what you stand for, and so passionately, are things I vehemently stand against.
And yes, you did plant intentional ambiguity in your promise to leave Substack. Come July 21, I’ll stay long enough with you to hear your promised apology, and then we’ll respectfully part from one another. Likely forever if things like mute buttons and “unfollow/unsubscribe” buttons truly work. You’ll also have to promise me you’ll stay far away from my daughter (okay, that was sarcastic hyperbole meant to be funny. Please take no offense. But do stay away from her).
To put a final end to my engagement in this thread, two questions for you: 1. Was Joe Biden duly and legally elected as our 46th President of these United States? And 2, will you accept the outcome of the upcoming presidential election in November of this year?
Mine own answers are a YES and YES as well. DANG IT CHARLES! Why you make a potential parting of engagement so hard!
You continue to be for me a major paradox—I know for sure you’d never find me condoning any of your beliefs, but I also believe you have a kind heart. Such the conundrum. Maybe we should simple agree to never talk politics anymore and instead talk about what draws us together—I believe I remember you hold as well some affinity for Eastern mysticism—Zen, Buddhism, Taoism? Maybe a little???
Sir, you are an alien who eats human babies for breakfast - you provide no contrary evidence.
I have some trouble with Charles's post, such as confusing the means whereby slaves were freed. They were de facto freed by Ulysses Grant.
Suspending Habeas Corpus was shameful and unnecessary. When the Maryland Assembly voted to secede, the results of the vote were to be announced. The messenger to the crowd emerged to find the Assembly building surrounded by Union Troops. He went back indoors and re-emerged 15 minutes later to announce that the vote had been close, but Maryland would remain in the Union.
I agree about Juneteenth. It is symbolic and established, similar to July 4 instead of the more appropriate July 3.
You are always there to explain things, Bill. What I know about the Civil War was gleaned from several books (including U.S. Grant's autobiography and the boring-but-thorough "Narrative" by Shelby Foote) and a weeklong seminar at Hillsdale College.
I did not know that the Maryland Assembly went so far as to support secession.
Ah…so am I therefore to assume you really think I am a “baby—eating alien?” That that very personal ad-hominem vulgarity was intentional on your part? Or was it hyperbole meant to be funny?
And while we’re here, to what do I need to offer contrary evidence from what I’ve already written? So that I know we are on the same page, paraphrase or even quote me exactly with whatever “allegation” you think I was making.
I might be in a space here where rational argument is impossible.
It is unfortunate that you cannot accept a college that still teaches history and ethics. Hillsdale College has never accepted government money or control.
And you still haven't provided evidence that you are not a baby-eating alien. We need "sources", here. Unless you can provide evidence that you are not a baby-eating alien, we have no choice but to accept that as fact.
I never said I could not accept Hillsdale as a college. Read my comments again Charles—never put your words into my mouth (or fingers). It is YOU who went there. I simply said it helped to clear some things up for me. I think it funny how you immediately went to a negative place—almost as if it hit too close to home or was some form of projection. Be that as it may…
And as an intelligent man (you, I’m banking on) in regards to “baby-eating aliens,” you should remember or at least know that it is a strong tenet of science that one cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the one with the wildest claim. Obviously, you and Bill are on the same team—so the burden of proof is all on you guys! I’m waiting but not holding my breath.
Slavery was an excuse to remove a power base. Human rights have always been used as an excuse. It connects with everyone. We send new soldiers to fight for human rights, as we starve the old whom were "lucky" enough to return. Are we fools or just fooled.
The multiple countries was referring to a storm in the desert.
Hmm…. Well, I’ll thank you for responding civilly to my question. I appreciate that. But to say “slavery was an excuse to remove a power base” and “human rights have always been used as an excuse” are, like Charles’, highly provocative statements that highlight biases. Anytime a person uses absolutes like “always,” raises a “red flag (you’ll have to pardon an obvious pun here) for me. “And everybody knows it” (said sarcastically.).
If you are stating sympathy and compassion toward returning veteran’s from unjust wars with unjust causes who have been treated abhorrently, then we have agreement there. But note to self: slavery was NEVER an excuse. If you had ancestors whom you knew to be slaves, please correct my possible misunderstanding of your perspective. I don’t think any of them would have viewed their enslavement as any kind of an excuse.
BTW, I don’t know who “they” are whom you refer to in your initial comment.
you do realize you just injected nothing but opinion; the guise of the story is we are all hypocrites and you laid it our wonderfully as you denied; perhaps focused on insulting me. Kert are you English, you certainly are pompous??? We are all slaves and the white guy was traded first. So beyond your personal ass kissing lgbtq response of self righteous indignation, please share more. You are pandering to weak minds with your rather vulgar attempt at stepping over someone.
Aaaand here we go with the ad-hominem attack and vulgar name-calling. Predictable. Sorry Kevin. We’re done if we can’t keep things civil. Your response, which I’ll have you note I intentionally separate from you as a person (since I don’t know you but I still want to assume the best), is way out of line concerning the tone we were on. You moved it to an ugly place that I refuse to enter with you.
Hey Karen, BM...Well, I’ll thank you for responding civilly to my question. Anytime a person uses absolutes like “always,” raises a “red flag (you’ll have to pardon an obvious pun here) for me. “And everybody knows it” (said sarcastically.). ...and the rest, well...
Many thanks for another perspective to chew on. Many do not know why they will be off on June 19th. Still filled with much misunderstanding. Very helpful to spur individuals to take a deeper dive.
Well, there you go again, Charles. Still being highly provocative. Not a fan of Abraham Lincoln, eh? Of course it took an act of Congress, to amend the Constitution, and “abolish” slavery altogether (such a loaded topic!), but to say “We don’t need no stinkin’ Habeus Corpus” Lincoln’s Proclamation was a political scheme exposes your bias (obviously intentional)—to say nothing of the choice to completely ignore the tremendous symbolic nature and necessity of the Proclamation which was meant to set this country on the true path of freedom for all. Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing. It had an obvious effect—it brought an awareness of what was possible in a land imperfectly devoted to the ideal that “all men are created equal!” The 13th Amendment likely would not have happened, and certainly when it happened, had the Emancipation Proclamation not been established from a single man who has rightly been acknowledged by the overwhelming majority of historians to be our country’s most important, most eloquent, most compassionate, most admired, and best presidents—imperfect as even he admitted. You, as a white man of privilege, who would prefer there still be a confederacy to live in (apparently, you give no evidence to the contrary), don’t get to proclaim Juneteenth isn’t important and expect no one to stand in vigorous opposition. You can say it, of course; we’ve debated that right in the recent past. But provocative statements like yours should always be confronted by a different perspective the likes of which will always be favored by history as the right and morally correct and defensible perspective. I don’t think, I trust, you are arguing against the 13th Amendment—you’d rather have that date of ratification be the one best celebrated for its actual impact upon the freedom of slaves (I don’t disagree—December 6, 1865 should itself be a national holiday). But Juneteenth was necessary and needed and rightfully commemorated. It started the bending of the long arc of the moral universe towards justice. So it had to happen. It’s earned its place as a national holiday. This is why June 19th IS important. I therefore stand in opposition to your thesis and respectfully disagree, vehemently.
Regardless, and you will remember, we still have July 19, 2024 to look forward to—32 days away. You promised, right?
But may we stay friends who have agreed to even vehemently disagree, agreeably. Until we are forced to depart from each other, that is—by your own self-imposed, deadlined promise.
I apologize for your lack of understanding. I am no fan of slavery and when I wrote about Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus I was referring to his illegally imprisoning thousands of Maryland voters to keep that state from joining the Confederacy.
I'm assuming you have at least a modest understanding of the American Civil War; so I'll try not to be so irritating. When Lincoln declared his famous "Emancipation Proclamation", he only stated that slaves in the Confederacy were set free. That's nothing more than an example of Lincoln pandering to his abolitionist base. How many ACTUAL slaves were set free by his Proclamation? I'd guess none.
The answer is zero. The actual wording is “areas still in rebellion.”
Don’t apologize for my lack of understanding, for THAT’s not something you could apologize for. (Side note: when students of mine, or even colleagues would attempt an apology by saying “I’m sorry you feel that way,” THAT really wasn’t an apology—for they were taking no responsibility for their part).
And I’ll state with certainty I’m not misunderstanding anything. With the history you state, re: Habeus Corpus in Maryland, and the Emancipation of confederate slaves, I am very aware of. I don’t contest any of that—but I don’t hear you acknowledging the value of the Emancipation Proclamation as I tried to articulate. It was a necessary step, as he, Lincoln, saw it to be, to get Congress eventually to the place it needed to be. To believe or say otherwise, especially with the words you use to describe Lincoln, would seem to point to a person who harbors some pretty extreme beliefs about slavery, Lincoln, the Civil War, etc. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but from my perspective, you are on the wrong side of history here. Why do I believe you fly a confederate flag and even right now are flying an American flag upside down?
This is why you continue to puzzle me, Charles. I really do appreciate the respect and civility in which you are engaging me. I hope you feel the same. Your pen pal partner, Kevin, sadly, can’t get to this place.
But I still 100% disagree with you.
Do you remember the promise you gave me for July 20, 2024? “If FJB is still in office after July 20, I’ll apologize and stop writing on Substack.com.” And don’t you dare tell me you purposefully left things ambiguous enough that it gives you justification for staying. Correct me if I’m wrong with this translation, “if the current president of the United States, Joseph Robinette Biden, is still in office after July 20, 2024, you will apologize and stop writing on all Substack applications, sites, and forums.” Right?
You are an astute reader, Kert. Indeed, I did promise to stop posting on Substack.com if Joe Biden remains in office after July 20. That does not mean I will stop commenting on other's posts. I appreciate the fact that you are aware that Lincoln was terrified that Maryland would join the CSA and that would put Washington, DC in a bad position - completely surrounded by rebels. I still insist that the Emancipation Proclamation was nothing more than a publicity stunt and an effort to win re-election. Although it is promoted through our propagandists that it accomplished something, it was no more meaningful than Biden's finally following Trump's plan to protect the border.
I again will call out your civility with me and thank you for that. I’m grateful you and I have come to this place even though what you stand for, and so passionately, are things I vehemently stand against.
And yes, you did plant intentional ambiguity in your promise to leave Substack. Come July 21, I’ll stay long enough with you to hear your promised apology, and then we’ll respectfully part from one another. Likely forever if things like mute buttons and “unfollow/unsubscribe” buttons truly work. You’ll also have to promise me you’ll stay far away from my daughter (okay, that was sarcastic hyperbole meant to be funny. Please take no offense. But do stay away from her).
To put a final end to my engagement in this thread, two questions for you: 1. Was Joe Biden duly and legally elected as our 46th President of these United States? And 2, will you accept the outcome of the upcoming presidential election in November of this year?
As regards to your final paragraph. my answers are Yes and Yes. How about you? I'd hate to lose you as a friend.
Mine own answers are a YES and YES as well. DANG IT CHARLES! Why you make a potential parting of engagement so hard!
You continue to be for me a major paradox—I know for sure you’d never find me condoning any of your beliefs, but I also believe you have a kind heart. Such the conundrum. Maybe we should simple agree to never talk politics anymore and instead talk about what draws us together—I believe I remember you hold as well some affinity for Eastern mysticism—Zen, Buddhism, Taoism? Maybe a little???
There is no way to know who won the 2020 elections because the audit trail had been destroyed. Biden was declared President and I accepted that.
Sir, you are an alien who eats human babies for breakfast - you provide no contrary evidence.
I have some trouble with Charles's post, such as confusing the means whereby slaves were freed. They were de facto freed by Ulysses Grant.
Suspending Habeas Corpus was shameful and unnecessary. When the Maryland Assembly voted to secede, the results of the vote were to be announced. The messenger to the crowd emerged to find the Assembly building surrounded by Union Troops. He went back indoors and re-emerged 15 minutes later to announce that the vote had been close, but Maryland would remain in the Union.
I agree about Juneteenth. It is symbolic and established, similar to July 4 instead of the more appropriate July 3.
You are always there to explain things, Bill. What I know about the Civil War was gleaned from several books (including U.S. Grant's autobiography and the boring-but-thorough "Narrative" by Shelby Foote) and a weeklong seminar at Hillsdale College.
I did not know that the Maryland Assembly went so far as to support secession.
“Hillsdale College.” Ah…the sky becomes clearer now.
Charles, are you ignoring me in wanting confirmation of the promise you made to me on June 6, 2024?
To seek clarity, who is an alien who eats human babies for breakfast?
Why, you sir. I thought that was obvious from my assertion that your lack of contrary evidence was all that was needed to prove your allegation.
Ah…so am I therefore to assume you really think I am a “baby—eating alien?” That that very personal ad-hominem vulgarity was intentional on your part? Or was it hyperbole meant to be funny?
And while we’re here, to what do I need to offer contrary evidence from what I’ve already written? So that I know we are on the same page, paraphrase or even quote me exactly with whatever “allegation” you think I was making.
I might be in a space here where rational argument is impossible.
It is unfortunate that you cannot accept a college that still teaches history and ethics. Hillsdale College has never accepted government money or control.
And you still haven't provided evidence that you are not a baby-eating alien. We need "sources", here. Unless you can provide evidence that you are not a baby-eating alien, we have no choice but to accept that as fact.
I never said I could not accept Hillsdale as a college. Read my comments again Charles—never put your words into my mouth (or fingers). It is YOU who went there. I simply said it helped to clear some things up for me. I think it funny how you immediately went to a negative place—almost as if it hit too close to home or was some form of projection. Be that as it may…
And as an intelligent man (you, I’m banking on) in regards to “baby-eating aliens,” you should remember or at least know that it is a strong tenet of science that one cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the one with the wildest claim. Obviously, you and Bill are on the same team—so the burden of proof is all on you guys! I’m waiting but not holding my breath.
Excuses to remove power; they used women's rights to destroy five countries. Be "nice" if they had a new playbook.
Hey Kevin, respectfully, I don’t follow you. Especially in the context of Charles’ post. Can you elaborate?
Slavery was an excuse to remove a power base. Human rights have always been used as an excuse. It connects with everyone. We send new soldiers to fight for human rights, as we starve the old whom were "lucky" enough to return. Are we fools or just fooled.
The multiple countries was referring to a storm in the desert.
Hmm…. Well, I’ll thank you for responding civilly to my question. I appreciate that. But to say “slavery was an excuse to remove a power base” and “human rights have always been used as an excuse” are, like Charles’, highly provocative statements that highlight biases. Anytime a person uses absolutes like “always,” raises a “red flag (you’ll have to pardon an obvious pun here) for me. “And everybody knows it” (said sarcastically.).
If you are stating sympathy and compassion toward returning veteran’s from unjust wars with unjust causes who have been treated abhorrently, then we have agreement there. But note to self: slavery was NEVER an excuse. If you had ancestors whom you knew to be slaves, please correct my possible misunderstanding of your perspective. I don’t think any of them would have viewed their enslavement as any kind of an excuse.
BTW, I don’t know who “they” are whom you refer to in your initial comment.
you do realize you just injected nothing but opinion; the guise of the story is we are all hypocrites and you laid it our wonderfully as you denied; perhaps focused on insulting me. Kert are you English, you certainly are pompous??? We are all slaves and the white guy was traded first. So beyond your personal ass kissing lgbtq response of self righteous indignation, please share more. You are pandering to weak minds with your rather vulgar attempt at stepping over someone.
Aaaand here we go with the ad-hominem attack and vulgar name-calling. Predictable. Sorry Kevin. We’re done if we can’t keep things civil. Your response, which I’ll have you note I intentionally separate from you as a person (since I don’t know you but I still want to assume the best), is way out of line concerning the tone we were on. You moved it to an ugly place that I refuse to enter with you.
Hey Karen, BM...Well, I’ll thank you for responding civilly to my question. Anytime a person uses absolutes like “always,” raises a “red flag (you’ll have to pardon an obvious pun here) for me. “And everybody knows it” (said sarcastically.). ...and the rest, well...
Many thanks for another perspective to chew on. Many do not know why they will be off on June 19th. Still filled with much misunderstanding. Very helpful to spur individuals to take a deeper dive.